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From "Frank W. Zammetti" <fzli...@omnytex.com>
Subject Re: Some questions
Date Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:51:36 GMT
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> For starters, development on Struts 1.x, a.k.a. Struts Classic, has been
> more or less stagnant since about 2002. 

Umm, since we all like dealing with "facts that are not in dispute"...

Struts 1.0, released June 2001
Struts 1.0.1, released January 2002
Struts 1.02, released February 2002
Struts 1.1, released June 2003
Struts 1.21 (Beta), released July 2004
Struts 1.2.2, released August 2004
Struts 1.2.4, released September 2004
Struts 1.2.6 (Beta), released December, 2004
Struts 1.2.7, released (as near as I can tell) May 2005
Struts 1.2.8, released (again, as near as I can tell) November 2005
Struts 1.2.9, released March 2006

So, since 2002, when you claim Struts has been "more or less stagnant" 
since, there have been 10 releases, so on average, a new release every 
4.5 months, give or take.

I'm not sure what dictionary your looking in, but for a project as 
important to so many people as Struts, that seems like a more than 
reasonable release record.  I'll grant you that not all those releases 
came with a bunch of new features, but that seems a bit unfair to me.

And let's not forget, 1.3 is coming, and it looks like pretty soon.  1.3 
brings one of the biggest changes so far in terms of what opportunities 
it should open up.  Whether that winds up being true or not is 
irrelevant, the fact is a lot of work went into it, and it *does* 
certainly represent a pretty big change.

 > In the meantime, other web
> application frameworks have been actively developed and are much more
> advanced in what they offer. At this point, Struts 1.x is significantly
> behind the state of the art in its application space. 

That may be true, but let me ask this question: so what?  Does Struts as 
it exists today serve a great many people very well?  Yes.  Does 
everyone need every single new feature available out there?  No.  You 
know, I've had my complaints as well, but ultimately, if the offering is 
doing the job for so many, how does how far behind the state of the art 
it is really matter?

 > There is no
> prospect of this changing. In fact, it will only become increasingly
> technically obsolete over time.

Well, yes, as virtually every technology does over time.  Even if Struts 
had done everything right, added every technical advantage, kept pace 
with everyone else to the best of everyones' efforts, would there still 
have been other ideas out there that people wanted to try?  Would there 
still have been alternatives developed that, at least in some ways, may 
have been better?  Of course!  This is how innovation happens.

> All new development that is taking place under the so-called "Struts
> umbrella" is either going to be on Struts Action 2 or Struts Shale.
> Struts Action 2 is a completely different product, which is really the
> rebranding of a competing framework, called Webwork. 

True, but as always been the case in the past, compatibility is being 
taken very seriously.  You are clearly trying to insinuate that using 
Struts 1.x now will in some way hamper you in the future, and that's not 
the plan.  I'm not involved in Struts development directly, but I do 
know how seriously these guys (and gal!) take backwards compatibility, 
so an investment in Struts 1.x now is not a dead end because migrating a 
1.x app to Action2 will be feasible.  That's the plan.

> I think all of the above is objective information that is not in
> dispute. Also, the implications are clear, which is that, starting new
> projects with Struts 1.x is a very questionable decision at this stage
> of history. 

I absolutely disagree.  Starting a project with Struts 1.x now is a 
decision that has to be weighed against the other options.  Struts 1.x 
is very stable, quite mature, and frankly more than sufficient for a 
great many projects being undertaken today.  There is a large base of 
expertise from which to hire.  There is plenty of free help on the web.

I would agree you need to try and think ahead and see if the project 
might require any of the things that Struts lacks, or is likely to be 
lacking later.  But to flat out say starting a new project with 1.x is a 
very questionable decision seems a thoroughly baseless conclusion.  It 
is based on the preposition that Struts development has stagnated.  If 
you had said it hadn't moved as fast or as much as some would have 
liked, I believe I would have agreed.  But stagnated?  No, I don't 
believe that is a fair conclusion.

> Well, in closing, my advice would be to spend a bit more time to get
> familiar with what is cooking in this java web application space before
> settling on your tool set. Have a look at Webwork, and Spring MVC and
> maybe other new frameworks such as Stripes. (The case of Webwork is kind
> of special, since Struts Action 2, the next generation Struts action
> framework, actually *is* Webwork!) In any case, I put it to you that the
> extra time invested in researching your toolset will be made up many
> times over down the road.

I would agree with this part though.  It sounds like Mario has the 
luxury of truly being able to decide what path to take.  Not everyone 
gets that luxury.  Exploring all the options is very good advice without 
question.  But don't ignore 1.x either.  It should be considered right 
along with all the other choices, and then make the best decision you 
can based on *your* conclusions.

> Jonathan Revusky

Frank

-- 
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!

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