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From Jonathan Revusky <revu...@wanadoo.es>
Subject Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Date Sat, 01 Apr 2006 16:17:43 GMT
Alexandre Poitras wrote:
> Stability : Relatively unchanging, permanent; firmly fixed or established,
> 
> Of course, it usually only refers to the framework API. It doesn't
> have anything to do with improvements or not, changing is changing for
> the best or the worst.
> 
> "There is nothing incompatible between being -->stable<-- and being
> innovative and
> -->changing<--" is totally contradictory according to your favorite dictionary.

Well, actually, there are concepts of *dynamic* stability -- for 
example, the notion of an aircraft being aerodynamically stable. I'm not 
an expert in that field so I am reluctant to take this analogy too far, 
but obviously, the aircraft is moving, it is not stationary. The 
stability in question is more or less that it doesn't go into an abrupt 
nosedive and crash. But it is moving. And it's stable, at least in a 
certain sense, at the same time.

In any case, in the context of this discussion, "stability" really only 
makes sense within a framework of overall technical progress. If 
development basically comes to a standstill, and there's no technical 
progress, then you have stability in the most trivial sense, that 
nothing happens.

This same stability could have been achieved by the javasoft team simply 
by not improving the Java platform past the 1.1.3 level, say. To achieve 
stability by simply not doing anything is hardly much of an achievement 
to crow about.

In any case, there is a concept of dynamic stability. You seem to be 
confusing the concept of something being stable with it being 
stationary. In so doing, you have entered into a rather sterile semantic 
game IMO.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

> 
> 
> 
> On 3/30/06, Dakota Jack <dakota.jack@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>Again, Alexandre, how are these contradictory?  Oh, LOL, I see what you are
>>thinking, if I can guess.  You think that code improvement and migration are
>>unstable.  Unstable is when you cannot count on a product for the long run.
>>This means stability embraces change and improvement, keeping up with the
>>Jones.  Look at the big picture.
>>
>>Stability is important.  That does not mean you don't improve.  There is
>>nothing incompatible between being stable and being innovative and
>>changing.  In fact, if a code base does not keep up, it is unstable.  A code
>>base is not stable if you cannot count on it for the future.
>>
>>On 3/30/06, Alexandre Poitras <alexandre.poitras@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Yesterday :
>>>"The stability of a platform like Struts is a big deal"
>>>Today :
>>>"Backward compatibility is never a reason to trash a product.  You go
>>>through a process of deprecation."
>>>
>>>On 3/30/06, Dakota Jack <dakota.jack@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have no idea, Alexandre, why you think this is a contradiction.  Could
>>>
>>>you
>>>
>>>>please point that out?
>>>>
>>>>On 3/30/06, Alexandre Poitras <alexandre.poitras@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>You lack memory Dakota, here's what you just wrote yesterday :
>>>>>
>>>>>"The hullabaloo, Larry, is about the stability of the platform with a
>>>>>bunch
>>>>>of committers who don't appear to be up to the job and who are not
>>>
>>>willing
>>>
>>>>>to look at what went wrong.  The stability of a platform like Struts
>>>
>>>is a
>>>
>>>>>big deal.  This is a time to decide to go with or to get off the
>>>
>>>Struts
>>>
>>>>>wagon.  How the committers respond has a lot to do with this."
>>>>>
>>>>>You just contradicted yourself... But you are so superior to us mere
>>>>>mortals that I am probably wrong again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 3/30/06, Dakota Jack <dakota.jack@gmail.com> wrote: 
You
>>>>>>>toadies to the process are the ones that always start this
>>>
>>>crap.  The
>>>
>>>>>truth
>>>>>
>>>>>>>is that you don't know shit.  If you did, you would be all over
>>>
>>>this
>>>
>>>>>>>question.  Backward compatibility is never a reason to trash a
>>>>>
>>>>>product.  You
>>>>>
>>>>>>>go through a process of deprecation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 3/30/06, Alexandre Poitras <alexandre.poitras@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Don't bother about him Bart. I said it and I will say it again,
>>>
>>>he
>>>
>>>>>is
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>a troll. I tried to have a constructive discussion with him
>>>
>>>several
>>>
>>>>>>>>times. It always ends up in personal attacks (go read some
books
>>>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>>>>>come back...) but he is the one never backing up his claims.
I
>>>
>>>am
>>>
>>>>>all
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>for freedom of speech and CONSRUCTIVE CRITICISM but I think
>>>
>>>people
>>>
>>>>>>>>have been REALLY tolerant with him. I can't count how many
times
>>>
>>>he
>>>
>>>>>>>>bashed Craig freely or any other commiters. It sounds like
>>>
>>>jalousy
>>>
>>>>>to
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>me. Dakota, this list is owned by Apache and you are a guess
>>>
>>>here.
>>>
>>>>>It
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>is not an absolute right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Honestly, I begin to think Shale should move to another place
>>>>>
>>>>>because
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>the amount of noise on this list is terrible. I don't write
a
>>>
>>>lot on
>>>
>>>>>>>>this list but I do read it a lot and this noise is getting
>>>
>>>really
>>>
>>>>>out
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>of control. Thank to 2 guys who have decided Apache doesn't
fit
>>>>>
>>>>>their
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>point of view and therefore anybody who don't think the same
>>>>>
>>>>>way  are
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>wrong . Here's a clue : you can take the code, evolve it and
>>>
>>>start
>>>
>>>>>>>>your own community then quite BUGGING US with your childish
>>>
>>>fights
>>>
>>>>>>>>since you will be so successful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>By the way, for those who may believe those guys, Struts 1.xdidn't
>>>>>>>>not evolve as fast as WebWork for one reason : API Backward
>>>>>>>>compatibilit, something very important to frameworks. This
is
>>>
>>>one of
>>>
>>>>>>>>the reason this community is so huge. Is it that hard to
>>>
>>>understand
>>>
>>>>>?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For instance, it has been well known since a long time that
>>>
>>>sending
>>>
>>>>>an
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>HttpServletRequest's instance to actions was a bad idea and
a
>>>>>
>>>>>neutral
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>context object should have been used instead but it hasn't
been
>>>>>>>>changed to keep the API consistant. Hence the need for a version
>>>
>>>2.0
>>>
>>>>>.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>WebWork technically already gots it right but always lacked
>>>
>>>(from
>>>
>>>>>what
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I heard) a big user community, something Struts has always
>>>
>>>enjoyed
>>>
>>>>>>>>because of its commitment to backward compatibility. So both
>>>>>>>>frameworks win in this merge especially given the strong
>>>
>>>competition
>>>
>>>>>>>>coming from components-oriented frameworks. Technical excellence
>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>>>>>>not the only success factor. Only idealists think this way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 3/30/06, Bart Busschots <bart@cs.nuim.ie> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Dakota Jack wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Dion, you are obviously really green.  Please read
a bit and
>>>
>>>then
>>>
>>>>>come
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>back.  Do you have any idea about architecture and
design and
>>>>>
>>>>>testing
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>issues?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>This is an example of the kind of post this list could
do
>>>
>>>without.
>>>
>>>>>The
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>above post basically boils down to:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"you disagree with me so you must be uneducated, go read
up
>>>
>>>some
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>then come talk with the big boys"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'm sorry but that is just insulting and most un-helpful.
>>>
>>>Jack,
>>>
>>>>>please
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>explain your point of view so us mere
>>>>>>>>>mortals can actually learn something rather than being
all
>>>
>>>smug
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>superior on people who dissagree with
>>>>>>>>>you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Bart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>Alexandre Poitras
>>>>>>>>Québec, Canada
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on
its
>>>>>
>>>>>back."
>>>>>
>>>>>>>~Dakota Jack~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>Alexandre Poitras
>>>>>>Québec, Canada
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Alexandre Poitras
>>>>>Québec, Canada
>>>>>
>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
>>>
>>>back."
>>>
>>>>~Dakota Jack~
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Alexandre Poitras
>>>Québec, Canada
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>>~Dakota Jack~
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada


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