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From Danny Angus <Danny_An...@slc.co.uk>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] JDK 1.4 for Tapestry 3.1
Date Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:21:16 GMT


> If every project resists going to JDK 1.4 API's because big vendors
> don't yet support it, what is the incentive for the big vendors to
> actually get to 1.4?

Pressure from their users, and the advantages provided by 1.4 for their own
Remember that the resistance isn't from the vendors themselves not
embracing 1.4 it is created by the commercial choice of their customers to
invest money and time in upgrading their systems and applications.
Upgrading part of a stable and important system is not a trivial matter, it
can involve much evaluation, regression testing, and redevelopment. It
involves risk, and therefore requires people to take responsibility for it.
Commercial vendors provide commercial support and contracts to share this
risk and mitigate its impact. We don't and can't provide support for users
who wish (owing to our requirements) to upgrade the JVM on which their j2ee
containers run.
There are also operating systems for which the combination of 1.4 JVM and
container product supporting both the OS and the JVM are only now coming
through. (E.G. Tru64 & Oracle9ias).

>  Let's *push* them to get with the program and
> stay current.

No thats not right, many organisations would simply sigh and add Tapestry
3.1 to their list of incompatible products.
Tapestry doen't run in a JVM, it is used by developers in applications
which run in an appserver, the decision to use 1.4 and by extrapolation
Tapestry 3.1, would be based upon the appservers capability and most likely
on the conditions of the support contract rather than directly on any
technical issues, not normally on Tapestry's requirements.

>  What if Ant, Struts, all the Jakarta Commons pieces, etc
> required 1.4 to run?  There would be a lot of developers complaining to
> IBM and BEA!

For whom the answer would be a $$ one. Don't make Tapestry 3.1 have a
hidden $$ cost *unless* there are real defensible technical arguments for
You quote some other Jakarta and ASF projects, turn the question round and
ask yourself why they haven't forced 1.4 as a requirement yet.

>  Tapestry certainly isn't in the position to be a sole
> driver to force such an issue, of course, but what have we got to lose
> versus what we've got to gain with the new API's?

Well you/we would see many more people using and requiring support for the
last stable Java 1.3 version, and what would we gain, precisely? Its all
very well to discuss this in principle, but IMO the only reason should be
that a particular plan cannot be accomplished without it.

> Let's demand what we want from vendors rather than them constraining us.

I don't want you to be constrained if having 1.4 as a requirement would do
that, but no one is really telling me what, in 1.4, is so important to
Tapestry 3.1 that not having it would really be a serious enough

> Embrace change,
Support your users, eschew change for change's sake ;-)


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