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From "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Date Mon, 23 Jun 2014 19:17:53 GMT
Hi Ted,

Thanks. One thing after doing some of my own digging:

TEZ has a large JIRA repository and apparently a lot of the work is going
on there:


Over 1200 issues to that tune as well.
This is validated by the following mail lists:


So looks like a *lot* of the development is occurring on list.

I'm hoping others in the Tez community can step up and also provide
similar data and factoids.


-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:50 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "dev@tez.incubator.apache.org" <dev@tez.incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]

>Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.
>It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.
>On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I
>> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
>> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
>> detail.
>> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
>> light of the
>> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
>> some of the
>> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2)
>> don't think
>> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
>> this factoid
>> _here_, etc.
>> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
>> insight
>> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
>> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>> >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
>> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
>> >>specific
>> >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group
>> >> >community building.
>> >>
>> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
>> >>originally
>> >> I didn't
>> >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
>> >>went
>> >> through
>> >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
>> >>entering
>> >> [1]. That's
>> >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members
>> >> from.
>> >>
>> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
>> >> discussions have
>> >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
>> >>outlined
>> >> in [1].
>> >
>> >
>> >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at
>> >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
>> >There
>> >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers,
>> >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
>> >
>> >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
>> >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well.  What I
>> >see
>> >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
>> >
>> >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because
>> >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
>> >
>> >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
>> >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project
>>dormancy or
>> >retirement isn't a bad thing.  Better to try and fail than never try.
>> >
>> >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies
>> >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but
>>rather as
>> >a marketing maneuver.
>> >
>> >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
>> >groups
>> >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
>> >
>> >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what
>> >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really
>> >the community.  There was one meat-space meetup a year ago.  There have
>> >been a few presentations of what Tez is.
>> >
>> >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
>> >Hortonworks
>> >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
>> >seem
>> >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
>> >
>> >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a
>> >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a
>> >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few
>> >discussions.  There was one thread last November about combiners,
>> >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
>> >parallelism.  To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
>> >discussions are occurring off-list.
>> >
>> >What I would like to see would include
>> >
>> >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
>> >implementation
>> >discussions to the list,
>> >
>> >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
>> >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is
>> >technically in the project in an interactive setting
>> >
>> >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
>> >the
>> >design works
>> >
>> >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
>> >opportunities.  Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and
>> > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
>> >Tez"
>> >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
>> >
>> >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
>> >presentations in the context of Tez
>> >
>> >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed
>> >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have
>> >major efforts along these lines.
>> >
>> >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
>> >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
>> >
>> >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but
>> >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
>> >building here and there is significant evidence that building community
>> >isn't even the point of the project.  That *is* a substantive issue
>> >relative to graduation.
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