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From Felipe Schnack <feli...@ritterdosreis.br>
Subject RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:29:21 GMT
  XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
  Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
calls.

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
> What does Javadoc document?  Java.  I think it is too much to ask most page
> designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
> (primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps).  And then they'd need to
> understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
> Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility.  I agree
> that making the page script free is a good step, however "programming" with
> XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming.  To a degree
> they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
> in and things like whether <c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/> does a deep
> copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
> 
> With XMLC you separate the skill sets better.  The programmer doesn't need
> to know the view.  The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
> replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID.  I really
> don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it.  However if I
> were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
> page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
> XMLC over JSP.
> 
> That's just my opinion though.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eric.Lewis@swissinfo.ch [mailto:Eric.Lewis@swissinfo.ch]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
> > To: taglibs-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >
> >
> > I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in "JSTL In
> > Action"),
> > you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
> > (or whatever
> > tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
> > JSP pages unless the first line reads
> > <%@ taglib prefix="scriptfree" uri="/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld" %>
> >
> > Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
> > the String
> > Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
> > in creating
> > custom tags yourself at all.
> >
> > I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
> > don't want
> > to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
> > the objects, and the rest is their work :-)  But of course they
> > need a good
> > documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Eric
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:jerome.jacobsen@gentootech.com]
> > > Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
> > > To: Tag Libraries Users List
> > > Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> > >
> > >
> > > JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
> > > only if the
> > > project has some very strict guidelines and very good
> > > documentation on those
> > > guidelines and your custom tags.  You would have to design
> > > the guidelines to
> > > be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP.  These
> > > restrictions
> > > should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
> > > have a complete
> > > understanding of how JSPs work.  Setting up all of this I
> > > think would be a
> > > lot of work.
> > >
> > > Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
> > (http://www.enhydra.org/).
> > In this framework the page writers write HTML.  Java programmers
> > write code
> > to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:net.reality@verizon.net]
> > > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
> > > To: Tag Libraries Users List
> > > Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> > >
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> > >                 As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
> > > the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
> > > programmers etc.  The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
> > > was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
> > > java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
> > > jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
> > > wyswig web designers and other non java programmers.  What is the point
> > > of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
> > > developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
> > > to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
> > > All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
> > > delgating developing using taglibs.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
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> 
-- 

Felipe Schnack
Analista de Sistemas
felipes@ritterdosreis.br
Cel.: (51)91287530
Linux Counter #281893

Centro Universitário Ritter dos Reis
http://www.ritterdosreis.br
ritter@ritterdosreis.br
Fone/Fax.: (51)32303341


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