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From Felipe Schnack <feli...@ritterdosreis.br>
Subject Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:45:20 GMT
>     As a developer I can tell you I dislike having to open up designers 
> html especialy those who use WYSWIG tools. 
  Maybe you should use a WYSIWYG tool too :-)

>On the other insert jsp,jstl 
> etc into html and send it back to designers leads to problems with 
> keyboard happy designers who love to "tweak" their designs etc.
  This is a matter of training...

 
> Felipe Schnack wrote:
> 
> >  XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
> >probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
> >  Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
> >dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
> >calls.
> >
> >On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>What does Javadoc document?  Java.  I think it is too much to ask most page
> >>designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
> >>(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps).  And then they'd need to
> >>understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
> >>Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility.  I agree
> >>that making the page script free is a good step, however "programming" with
> >>XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming.  To a degree
> >>they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
> >>in and things like whether <c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/> does a
deep
> >>copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
> >>
> >>With XMLC you separate the skill sets better.  The programmer doesn't need
> >>to know the view.  The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
> >>replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID.  I really
> >>don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it.  However if I
> >>were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
> >>page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
> >>XMLC over JSP.
> >>
> >>That's just my opinion though.
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Eric.Lewis@swissinfo.ch [mailto:Eric.Lewis@swissinfo.ch]
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
> >>>To: taglibs-user@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in "JSTL In
> >>>Action"),
> >>>you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
> >>>(or whatever
> >>>tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
> >>>JSP pages unless the first line reads
> >>><%@ taglib prefix="scriptfree" uri="/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld" %>
> >>>
> >>>Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
> >>>the String
> >>>Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
> >>>in creating
> >>>custom tags yourself at all.
> >>>
> >>>I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
> >>>don't want
> >>>to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
> >>>the objects, and the rest is their work :-)  But of course they
> >>>need a good
> >>>documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
> >>>
> >>>Best regards,
> >>>Eric
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:jerome.jacobsen@gentootech.com]
> >>>>Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
> >>>>To: Tag Libraries Users List
> >>>>Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
> >>>>only if the
> >>>>project has some very strict guidelines and very good
> >>>>documentation on those
> >>>>guidelines and your custom tags.  You would have to design
> >>>>the guidelines to
> >>>>be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP.  These
> >>>>restrictions
> >>>>should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
> >>>>have a complete
> >>>>understanding of how JSPs work.  Setting up all of this I
> >>>>think would be a
> >>>>lot of work.
> >>>>
> >>>>Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>(http://www.enhydra.org/).
> >>>In this framework the page writers write HTML.  Java programmers
> >>>write code
> >>>to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:net.reality@verizon.net]
> >>>>Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
> >>>>To: Tag Libraries Users List
> >>>>Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Greetings,
> >>>>                As a software developer I would like to delegate some
of
> >>>>the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
> >>>>programmers etc.  The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
> >>>>was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
> >>>>java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
> >>>>jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
> >>>>wyswig web designers and other non java programmers.  What is the point
> >>>>of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
> >>>>developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
> >>>>to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
> >>>>All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
> >>>>delgating developing using taglibs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: taglibs-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: taglibs-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        
> >>>>
> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: taglibs-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>For additional commands, e-mail: taglibs-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: taglibs-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>For additional commands, e-mail: taglibs-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: taglibs-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: taglibs-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: taglibs-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: taglibs-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> 
-- 

Felipe Schnack
Analista de Sistemas
felipes@ritterdosreis.br
Cel.: (51)91287530
Linux Counter #281893

Centro Universitário Ritter dos Reis
http://www.ritterdosreis.br
ritter@ritterdosreis.br
Fone/Fax.: (51)32303341


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