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From Felipe Schnack <feli...@ritterdosreis.br>
Subject Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Date Wed, 05 Feb 2003 17:08:25 GMT
  I know designers that don't like to LOOK at html code... imagine lern
JSTL, Struts tags, etc...
  If I was a designer and knew about all this I would probably be a good
and expensive one :-)

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 14:57, Vinay wrote:
> This is a very interesting discussion , at this point I would like to join
> this discussion and express my concerns and opinions.
> I am basically a Java  programmer, using struts for our software
> development. Even though I am right now doing both design work using JSTL-EL
> and development I can't really make the web pages beautiful. I don't use any
> IDE or any tools though for any of the stuff.
> 
> So we may have a designer soon and the concern is that most designers I
> think will not have knowledge of JSTL .I don't know how difficult it is to
> make the designer knowledgeable about JSTL tags ,Java Objects or Java beans
> and  even if we may allow the designer to do the web page design using some
> tool like dreamweaver , still there be lot of  burden upon  the programmer
> to embed the JSTL-EL tags into the JSP pages. It also requires the developer
> to use a tool such as Dreamweaver to edit the web designer's code,which may
> cause some discrepancies in the design(this might not be true,just my
> guess). But I still think that JSTL-EL is the way to go as it really helps
> define a view logic (user interface)without any scriplets.
> 
> Vinay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Lin" <tcw00lfel@yahoo.com>
> To: "Tag Libraries Users List" <taglibs-user@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> 
> 
> >
> > >From past experience there are alot of people who like
> > the cold fusion style of page authoring. If you've
> > ever looked at cold fusion tags and page syntax, JSTL
> > is very similar.
> >
> >
> > Even though tag like syntax has been around for a
> > while, many people are still unconfortable with them.
> > There's several reasons for this from personal
> > experience. Page authors who use WYSIWYG editors and
> > don't understand the difference between <p> and <div>
> > abhore looking at tags. You don't want these people
> > working on pages anyway.
> >
> >
> > On the otherhand, experience HTML coders who write
> > html by hand find it a nice environment that allows
> > them to do some simple markup logic w/o learning java.
> > I had to train junior developer in the past that
> > primarily used WYSIWYG editors. Once they got used to
> > hand coding html, using tag was preferable to writing
> > java.
> >
> >
> > Power comes a cost of learning, so if people find
> > their page authors are unwilling to put forth the
> > effort, then there's not much you can do.  I won't
> > mention companies, but there are other BIG players
> > that are moving towards tag syntax in their product
> > line for webservices.
> >
> > peter
> >
> >
> > --- Glenn Nielsen <glenn@mail.more.net> wrote:
> > > Pierre Delisle wrote:
> > > > Also, I'd be very interested in hearing about the
> > > type of
> > > > environment you work in for the development of
> > > dynamic
> > > > web applications. That should help us understand
> > > as a community
> > > > the usage profiles and their bias :-)
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > >     -- Pierre
> > >
> > > All of the discussion so far on this topic has made
> > > the assumption
> > > that those using this technology are part of a
> > > development team.
> > > A team that may include graphic designers, web
> > > designers, programmers,
> > > dba's, and architects where design concepts like MVC
> > > can be implemented.
> > > This assumption holds up for the most part for
> > > businesses which use
> > > this technology for web enabling the enterprise.
> > >
> > > For our own inhouse development we follow this model
> > > also, although
> > > our team is very small (3-4 people), and most of the
> > > team can fulfill
> > > multiple roles.
> > >
> > > My organization provides email and web site hosting
> > > for non profit organizations
> > > and schools. The types of organizations which can't
> > > afford to hire a development
> > > team or hire expensive consultants to design complex
> > > applications.  But these
> > > customers often have a need to add some sort of
> > > simple dynamic content to their
> > > web sites.  Generally those who maintain these web
> > > sites are not programmers.
> > > A better term to describe them would be page
> > > authors.  Technologies such as
> > > JSP pages with custom tags, especially the Standard
> > > Taglib, can lower the
> > > technology barrier to a point where some adventurous
> > > page authors can invest
> > > the time to learn enough about these technologies to
> > > create simple applications
> > > which adds dynamic content to their web site.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Glenn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> 
-- 

Felipe Schnack
Analista de Sistemas
felipes@ritterdosreis.br
Cel.: (51)91287530
Linux Counter #281893

Centro Universitário Ritter dos Reis
http://www.ritterdosreis.br
ritter@ritterdosreis.br
Fone/Fax.: (51)32303341


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