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From Stack <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
Date Wed, 22 Feb 2017 06:01:19 GMT
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <> wrote:

> Hi,
> Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call
> yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and say
> thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting
> Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right questions
> and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know about)!
> Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a
> bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get
> some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more
> active users over the next year or so.
> Thanks again for being a great mentor,
Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!

Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
list on incubator?

If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this; good
to have variety of opinion.

Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.


> Hans
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [] On Behalf Of Stack
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> To:
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <> wrote:
> > James,
> >
> > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last
> > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as
> > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> Cloudera,
> > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other reason
> > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had as
> > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and
> > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> enough
> > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source
> > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc.
> >
> > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the
> > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> most
> > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> developers
> > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
> >
> > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company
> of
> > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to
> > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be
> crazy
> > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible
> > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of
> > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared
> to
> > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with
> the
> > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the
> > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support
> > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.  Maybe
> > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> Trafodion
> > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> > ready for it.
> >
> > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects are
> > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great
> job.
> > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished
> to
> > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how
> the
> > Apache foundation and its community works.
> >
> > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own
> > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> >
> >
> Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
>  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
> incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd consider
> what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator is
> doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these times).
> We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time around?
> (James, you interested?)
>  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just provide
> guidance.
>  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one (Apache),
> then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies' resources.
> If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
> bother.
>  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when you
> TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
>  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is dodgy
> even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
> is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is diverse
> enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While we
> have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members, how
> many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any users
> who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> Thanks,
> S
> > Rohit
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James Taylor []
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> Esgyn,
> > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > >
> > >
> > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> >

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