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From Qifan Chen <qifan.c...@esgyn.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
Date Wed, 22 Feb 2017 16:37:04 GMT
On top of Eric's point that a number of companies are currently using the technology in production.
The adoption of the technology probably will accelerate after the graduation, as it will be
formally backed by Hadoop.

The other point is that Trafodion has already taken in HBase as the storage engine. As it
acquires more number of customer uses, it is quite possible that new improvement and innovations
etc will continue with both Trafodion and HBase, and their overlapping and interaction areas.
 Therefore, the graduation will create a win-win situation for the community.  I strongly
believe the same will happen with other Hadoop technologies, such as ORC.

Thanks --Qifan
________________________________
From: Eric Owhadi <eric.owhadi@esgyn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:21:38 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

+1 on all this.
On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have currently accepted
to disclose their names.
Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense on the fact that
Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers, enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
Eric


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this without being paid,
but is the technology being used widely enough that other companies would want to hire trafodion
expertise if they could not get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending
on the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production.

I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in the mood now to
graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2) Keeping us in incubating state is
not helping us achieve the diversity we are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our
bad practices, then, yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is
merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity.

--Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would
> definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache
> world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you
> to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
>
> I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had
> a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the
> diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that
> shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific
> steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project
> does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I
> would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated
> projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would
> need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a
> single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At
> present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do
> have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They
> contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in
> terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term
> "active" committer is defined.
>
> I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to
> Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that
> chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I
> think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not
> be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be
> it as a podling or as a TLP.
>
> Thanks
> Suresh
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <ming.liu@esgyn.cn>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid
> > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as
> > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8
> > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always
> > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to
> > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted
> > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as
> > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we
> > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly
> > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much
> > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in
> > advertising maybe :-)
> >
> > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion
> > in China, and more and more customers.
> > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion
> > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group
> > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So
> > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice
> > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure
> > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> >
> > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for
> > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people
> > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to
> > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some
> > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features
> > to some
> other
> > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience.
> > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find
> > more
> tasks
> > for beginners.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Ming
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack
> > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one
> > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could
> > call me (an
> informal)
> > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> Member)
> > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> >
> > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > improvements) is healthy.
> >
> > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the
> > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have
> > a page in
> our
> > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have
> > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> community
> > support.
> > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations),
> > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party
> > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
> >
> > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love
> > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> >
> > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask
> > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough
> > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive
> > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an
> > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> least
> > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors,
> > as anyone committed to the project (building the community,
> > promoting the
> > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> PPMC
> > Member..
> >
> > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation.
> > We
> just
> > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel
> > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
> >
> > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> minor
> > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait
> > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers
> > towards retirement.
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <stack@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller
> > > <hans.zeller@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack,
> > > > you
> call
> > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with
> > > > that and
> > > say
> > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> granting
> > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the
> > > > right
> > > questions
> > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't
> > > > know
> > > about)!
> > > >
> > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we
> > > > should
> > wait a
> > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we
> > > > will
> > get
> > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and
> > > > some
> > more
> > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > >
> > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the
> > > general list on incubator?
> > >
> > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get
> > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion
> > > like this;
> > good
> > > to have variety of opinion.
> > >
> > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > Stack
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain
> > > > <rohit.jain@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > James,
> > > > >
> > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to
> > > > > Stack the
> > > last
> > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the
> > > > > same risk
> > > as
> > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.
> > > > > But I
> > guess
> > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such
> > > > > as
> > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the
> > > > > other
> > > reason
> > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with
> > > > > Kudu, as
> > an
> > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have
> > > > > not
> > had
> > > as
> > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> complexity
> > > and
> > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is
> > > > > large
> > > > enough
> > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other
> > > > > open
> > > source
> > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with
> > > > > HBase,
> ORC,
> > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> presence in
> > > the
> > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> source
> > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.
> > > > > Plus,
> > > > most
> > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to
> > > > > new
> > > > developers
> > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we
> > > > > do
> have
> > in
> > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source
> > > > > and
> > open
> > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to
> > > > > the
> > company
> > > > of
> > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no
> > > > > obvious
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that
> > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations
> > > > > of developers that
> > they
> > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it
> > > > > would
> be
> > > > crazy
> > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > incredible
> > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of
> > > > > hundreds
> > > of
> > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > technology,
> > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > compared
> > > > to
> > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully
> > > > > complying
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to
> > > > > achieve in
> > > the
> > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical
> > > > > Processing
> > > support
> > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> spectrum.
> > > Maybe
> > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine
> > > > > like
> > > > Trafodion
> > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to
> > > > > make
> > it
> > > > > ready for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all
> > > > > projects
> > > are
> > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done
> > > > > a
> great
> > > > job.
> > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the
> > > > > project
> > and
> > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > accomplished
> > > > to
> > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > decision
> > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go
> > > > > figure
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said
> > > > > out of my
> > > own
> > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but
> > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > >
> > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going
> > > > to be
> > in
> > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though
> > > > I'd
> > > consider
> > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > incubator
> > > is
> > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself
> > > > these
> > > times).
> > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this
> > > > time
> > > around?
> > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they
> > > > just
> > > provide
> > > > guidance.
> > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external
> > > > one
> > > (Apache),
> > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > resources.
> > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would
> > > > ask
> > why
> > > > bother.
> > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be
> > > > present when
> > > you
> > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful
> > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded
> > > > upon tech that is
> > > dodgy
> > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > >
> > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to
> > > > graduate but
> > as
> > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC
> > > > is
> > > diverse
> > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> While
> > > we
> > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> members,
> > > how
> > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we
> > > > have
> any
> > > users
> > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rohit
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <stack@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there
> > > > > > were no
> > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > question
> > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

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