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From "Nathan Bubna" <>
Subject Re: A 1.5 release date?
Date Sat, 06 May 2006 22:27:57 GMT
On 5/6/06, Demetrios Kyriakis <> wrote:
> Nathan thank you very much for the insights of the Apache (esp.
> Velocity) way of work. See my comments below, but please don't put too
> my weight on my newbie option :):


> > In the many years i have been using and developing Velocity, there has
> > never been a planned release date.
> My logic doesn't say this is the best thing :) - I mean just because it
> was always done so is not a reason enough for me :) - as a newbie I
> might be totally wrong, I know :).

my logic doesn't say it's best either.  in fact, i'm not even saying
it's the best thing.  i'm just saying it's the way it's been done. :) 
it's been done that way for two reasons:  1) it's hard to predict who
will have time/motivation to do the work, since no one gets paid for
this.  2) we want our releases to be ready for release, rather than
just release because it's "time to release"

that may not be best, but without paying developers or lowering
quality standards, it is hard to do it any other way.  insights and
suggestions are welcome though.

> > Occasionally one of the developers
> > will put out a rough target timeline that may include a goal for a
> > release (usually no more specific than a month or a quarter), but
> > those are notoriously unreliable.
> I see, your point. However to know that 1.5 will come out in summer 2006,
> or Christmas 2006 or just summer 2007 (or not at all) would be
> interesting for everybody - I think.

yep.  having that info would be helpful to me too!  unfortunately, i
don't have it, nor do i have a reliable way to generate it.  we could
start a discussion on the dev list and pick a goal (wouldn't be the
first time, and has been useful at times), but there's no way to
guarantee that we'll make it.

> > The current plan is to release Velocity 1.5 once a specific set of
> > issues in our bugtracker have been resolved.  I'm sorry if that is
> > unsatisfying, but the situation is currently such that everyone seems
> > to have higher priorities at the moment.  Velocity is very stable and
> > useable.  Our personal lives, other projects, and paid work are the
> > squeaky wheels at the moment.  I personally find 1.5 to be greatly
> > improved from 1.3.1 or 1.4.  It doesn't have an official release yet,
> > because we hope to fix a few more old bugs first.
> > But it is quite
> > stable at this point.  I would not fear beginning to use it already.
> The main problem is that in many projects a "dev" version is not really
> accepted,
> and even worse, if that "dev" version doesn't even have an approximate
> release date( it might remain "dev" forever), than everybody laughs if
> one is trying to propose the use of such a library.

agreed, and even those of us with some freedom to use dev versions
like to have releases that we can count on.  if you just want to keep
people from laughing, then i'll make up an "estimated release date"
for you.  of course, it's likely to be about as reliable as
Microsoft's release schedule for Vista.  ;-)

> > If you really want to push us to get a 1.5 release out the door, then
> > you should be able to push it yourself quite effectively.
> No I can't :(. I'm a newbie in this domain and if I have to do this
> myself too, than it's much simpler for me to implement myself what I
> need - since I can master my own library/code much better.

we all have to start somewhere.  i didn't say it was easy.  most of
the bugs we're holding back 1.5 for are tricky corner cases.  trivial
in that they don't really cause much trouble, but the work to find and
fix them is not so trivial.  if they were easy, i would just put what
little time i have this quarter into those rather than offer it to
help others go after them.  the point is that the option is there. 
those that aren't happy with 1.3.1 or 1.4 or 1.5-dev *are welcome to
contribute* to push toward a 1.5 release.

> Also, if the project manager asks, I can't evaluate the risk and the
> effort for an unknown external library - not so for my own code. Well at
> least that's my feeling after being burned with other external libraries :).

yeah, that's a challenge for me too.  so i can't put company time into
these bugs that don't bother us right now, and i don't currently have
free personal time for them.  oh well.  if they need to be done,
they'll eventually get done.  if they don't, then we may sometime just
release 1.5 and list these cases as known issues.  right now, unless
Will, Daniel, or Henning find the time, i don't have the time to even
manage a release (that's a lot more work than you'd think).  And once
i get that time, i'm liable to release VelocityTools 1.3 first. :)

> Thank you very much,
> D.
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