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From Jonathan Revusky <>
Subject Re: A 1.5 release date?
Date Sun, 07 May 2006 13:56:32 GMT
Nathan Bubna wrote:
> On 5/6/06, Ahmed Mohombe <> wrote:
>> > I just can't
>> > currently prioritize the time to investigate and solve them myself.
>> Than if none of the Velocity developers has time for the project, IMHO 
>> it would
>> be fair to say and state that, so that everybody knows Velocity is "de 
>> facto abandoned" (or
>> "dormant" in Apache language if I'm not wrong).
> Uh... no.  not at all.
> First, did i not just offer time for the project?  

Well, you did, but then qualified it by saying you don't have much time, 
and again, the objective progress (lack thereof) of the last few years 
has not been good.

> Am i not putting in time right now?  

I guess you are, but in a completely sterile manner. Trying to BS people 
about the state of the project is not helpful.

> Just because i don't have time to do all the work to
> fix the trivial bugs left in 1.5 myself *right now* doesn't mean that
> don't have time for the project.  That's nonsense.

People should judge by the objective results.

> Second, whether or not the developers have time for a project at a
> given point absolutely does not mean that we have abandoned it.  Unless 
> your definition of abandoned means "uses the latest version,
> participates in the community around the code, and fully intends to
> work more in the future".  If that is your definition of "de facto
> abandoned", then you are completely correct!!  Isn't that great?

Well, anybody can see just how stagnant things have been. Isn't it 
senseless to try to flame people for just calling a spade a spade?

>> Asking from newbies to "fix themselfs" is not OK IMHO and not the 
>> right signal IMHO.
> I didn't ask him to fix it himself.  Quite the contrary.  I said he
> could push things forward if he wanted, and that i would happily help
> him as i am able!  

Well, you have a history here of people contributing patches, like the 
map literal patch, and nobody doing anything with it for years. Like 3 
years or more!

Did the guy who offered that patch ever show up again and offer more 

The way things are structured in these ASF projects is that the only way 
anybody can push things forward is by getting the attention of an 
existing committer. So you have a situation where people contribute code 
and nothing is done with it. Or if it is, it takes literally years.

Unless there is some very serious commitment from you guys to improve on 
your track record on this, it strikes me as kind of silly (or possibly 
something worse) to encourage people to contribute -- when the most 
likely thing is that the contributions will be ignored.

> If you are not getting the right signal, it is
> because you have preconcieved conclusions and are letting them
> interfere with your ability to read.
>> I can imagine that this is one of the most important but "not spoken 
>> because of netiquette" reason
>> so many moved to FreeMarker.
> If Freemarker fits your needs better, please go use it and don't waste
> my time with politics.

Nathan, this remark was not directed at me, but I find it offensive. It 
takes a certain shamelessness, a certain unmitigated gall, does it not, 
to accuse others of wasting *your* time, when you are the one 
encouraging people to contribute code to a project, when said 
contributions will almost certainly be ignored.

Precisely because the project is basically dormant.

It is simply irresponsible to encourage people to waste their time like 
that. In general, it is irresponsible to misrepresent the state of an 
open source project, and this continually happens here, to an extent 
that goes beyond a point where one can give people the benefit of the doubt.

>> If a user has to fix for himself every library is depending on than it 
>> simply makes no sense to use
>> those libraries at all.
> Funny, and i thought that was what open source was all about...  it's
> certainly how i got into this.  You could also check out WebMacro. 
> There's actually a company behind that.  

Nathan, as a committer in the Velocity project, you really ought to be 
better informed about what is going on in the space. I do not believe it 
is accurate to say that there is any company behind WebMacro. The 
original author, Justin Wells, who has since left the project, had a 
consulting company called Semiotek or something, and the code is 
copyrighted to that entity. But there is really no company behind 
WebMacro, not in the sense that people are getting paid to hack WebMacro.

> Seems like it would fit your
> paradigm better than Freemarker or Velocity

In fact, WebMacro is also basically a dead project.

Jonathan Revusky
lead developer, FreeMarker project,

>> Ahmed.
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