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From Jason Pettiss <>
Subject Re: The Guardian website moves to Velocity
Date Sun, 13 May 2007 17:54:42 GMT
> >>Bobby boy, I am going to put my money where my mouth is. You can check 
> >>out our docgen module and run it. If you can rewrite that XML 
> >>transformation in XSLT and get it to run faster than the FM one we have, 
> >>using any Java XSLT implementation, I will wire you $500. Or I'll donate 
> >>the $500 to the charity of your choice, like maybe the W3C fan club.
> >>
> >>And better yet, I will eat my words in public.

> > How about this: Instead of the $500, how about you never post to the
> > Velocity list again? If that is too great a price for you, then I would
> > do it for the $500.

> $500 is the offer. Don't quibble, it's a pretty good offer, since you 
> don't have to send me anything when you fail.
> It's not open-ended. I'll give you a whole month. YOu need more time? I 
> think that's enough time to report success/failure.

But what about the $500.  I think you owe Robert some money.  I do know 
how to set up my classpath properly and at least on my machine, this is 
just a little bit faster than FreeMarker.

Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Robert Koberg wrote:
>> On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 23:03 +0200, Jonathan Revusky
>>>>    <xslt in="${docgen.manualsrc.dir}/book.xml"
>>>> out="${docgen.output.dir}/book.html"
>>>>        style="${docgen.transformsrc.dir}/xsl/db.xsl" force="true">
>>>>        <factory name="com.icl.saxon.TransformerFactoryImpl"/>
>>>>        <!--
>>>>            <factory
>>>> name="org.apache.xalan.xsltc.trax.TransformerFactoryImpl"/>
>>>>            <factory name="com.icl.saxon.TransformerFactoryImpl"/>
>>>>        -->
>>>>    </xslt>
>>> ClassNotFoundException. What needs to be on the CLASSPATH to run this?
>> I don't know if I can/want to help you if you can't get a core Ant task
>> to run. 
> Okay, that's it. It's over. Just fuck off, Bobby boy. This interaction 
> is over. This level of utter insolence is just too much.
> Yeah, obviously, anybody who asks you what you need on the CLASSPATH 
> to run something in Java must be a lamer.
> Oh, except for one little thing... the lamer in question has made 
> substantial contributions to the application space, while you have 
> contributed nothing. Like, every time you go to all kinds of high 
> profile web sites (the City of Paris comes to mind... but plenty of 
> others... any forum that uses Jive forums or JForum...) whenever you 
> go there, some code I wrote is running in the background to serve the 
> pages you're looking at.
> Yet you affect this superiority where I am an obvious incompetent to 
> be asking you what has to be on the CLASSPATH to run something. This 
> is just too much. It's over.
> Lest you say I'm trying to weasel out, well... look... you were trying 
> to cheat anyway. You claim that XSLT would "blow away" our 
> transformation and then supposedly you win the challenge by having 
> something just equally fast. How is that "blowing away" something? And 
> there was no quid pro quo on the thing, where if you failed, you had 
> to pay anything, so you know....
>> I did mention if you want to use Saxon (what I had defaulted in my
>> copy/paste example), you would have to have that in the classpath - an
>> easy way to do that is put the saxon 6.5.5 jar in the $ANT_HOME/lib dir.
> I'm losing interest in the whole thing. I somehow got snookered into 
> this whole performance discussion anyway. Performance is secondary. 
> The reason FM would be a good alternative to XSLT in many cases is 
> that the programming model is more intuitive for many, probably most, 
> people. There isn't that much reason for the two things to perform so 
> very differently insofar as they both walk the tree and output stuff. 
> OTOH, they're tools with completely different paradigms. XSLT is a 
> tree transformation tool and the FM is a plain text template engine. 
> So I accept that XSLT might be a better fit for certain things, since 
> it's a different paradigm completely. The FM vs. Vel discussion is 
> different, since FM and Vel are basically the same tool 
> paradigmatically. and FM is just better: it's sufficiently more 
> advanced in design and execution and its features set, that Vel is 
> just obsolete. It's like SVN vs. CVS.
> But, all that aside, take this as you will. I just don't want to 
> interact with you any more. It's too distasteful.
> Jonathan Revusky
> -- 
> lead developer, FreeMarker project,
>>> transform:
>>>      [xslt] DEPRECATED - xalan processor is deprecated. Use trax 
>>> instead.
>>>      [xslt] DEPRECATED - xslp processor is deprecated. Use trax 
>>> instead.
>>>      [xslt] java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: 
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