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From Holly Cummins <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Modifications to Aries release process
Date Fri, 06 Jul 2012 16:53:21 GMT
Hi David,

Thanks David, profiles are a good idea. I'll add them to the list of
possible strategies on the releasing page. My concern with them in
general is that it's another thing to maintain, and therefore another
thing to potentially forget to maintain. In this case, however, the
profile would either be deleted once the release is promoted, or we'd
be re-using the dev profile, so in either case the maintenance is much
less of an issue.


On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:12 PM, David Jencks <> wrote:
> OK, so the release manager doesn't have a problem, but if we update trunk to use the
under-vote 1.0.0 versions anyone else is going to need to either build the under-vote artifacts
or add the staging repo while the vote is going on.
> At one point we talked about having profiles, one for the earliest usable dependency
versions and one for the latest snapshots.  I even tried it somewhere and it seemed to work.
 Would that solve this problem?  Even if the default profile was for the earliest, under-vote,
1.0.0 artifacts it's not too hard to specify a profile to get the build to work while the
vote is happening.
> thanks
> david jencks
> On Jul 6, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Guillaume Nodet wrote:
>> Holy, there's *no* extra-step for the release manager, you don't have to
>> change your settings.xml or whatever.  It's just less work.
>> It will even be easier for users because at the end of the release process,
>> everything will be consistent in a snapshot version in trunk.
>> On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 4:47 PM, Holly Cummins <
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi David,
>>> [snip]
>>>> I don't understand the problem.  I thought Guillaume was suggesting that
>>> you put a lot of released artifacts, built by the rm (you) in the same
>>> nexus staging repo.  Since you just built API-1.0.0 on your build machine,
>>> it will be in your local maven repo, and you can continue to build all the
>>> other stuff that needs it on your repo.  No one else can get the 1.0.0
>>> artifacts from a remote maven  repo until you close the staging repo, but
>>> they can also build the 1.0.0 artifacts themselves, just like you did (they
>>> won't have to change the versions, since the relevant code will already be
>>> in a svn tag from running the release plugin).
>>>> Once you close the staging repo, people can add it to their local nexus
>>> or settings.xml and fetch the under-vote 1.0.0 artifacts without building
>>> them themselves.
>>>> What am I missing?
>>> Those extra steps, to either adjust settings.xml, or check out a tag
>>> and build it, seem non-ideal to me. I'd argue a build should just
>>> work, or that any extra steps (like adjusting settings.xml) should be
>>> 'one-off', rather than constantly variable. It means when someone
>>> wants to do a release, it creates a bit of inconvenience for everyone
>>> else, which - imo - tends to drag us back to a 'release only when
>>> absolutely necessary' model. After all, no one wants to be the person
>>> who breaks the build, even if there are workarounds ...
>>> We'd also need to add pre-build steps to Jenkins to populate the
>>> repositories on the build machines, again increasing the complexity
>>> and fragility of the automated build.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Holly
>>>> thanks
>>>> david jencks
>>>>> I think this is sensible to do occasionally, but it's error prone and
>>>>> makes more work for the release manager. Obviously, the big advantage
>>>>> of it is that the release gets voted through over a period of a few
>>>>> days, rather than a month or two, for a big release. :)
>>>>> Holly
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 6:45 PM, Holly Cummins
>>>>>> <> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Guillaume,
>>>>>>> Thanks for your comments. Here are some of my thoughts ...
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Guillaume Nodet <>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I think one problem, considering the current votes, is that
>>>>>>>> really difficult to test anything.   Releasing api bundles
with no
>>>>>>>> implementation to test is definitely not helping imo.
>>>>>>> I know what you mean about the testing, and I'm not totally sure
>>>>>>> the best answer is. I know what I'm releasing comes from trunk,
and is
>>>>>>> being tested by the Jenkins builds, so I'm pretty confident it
>>>>>>> in a real system. However being tested in more environments and
>>>>>>> more systems is obviously a Good Thing.  I think the best way
to test
>>>>>>> the API bundles is with the current -SNAPSHOT bundles of the
>>>>>>> implementation, either in something like the blog sample or some
>>>>>>> working system. If we weren't moving from 0.x to 1.0 you could
>>>>>>> test micro releases alongside existing impl bundles to ensure
>>>>>>> everything resolves and works as claimed.
>>>>>>>> Holly, just a question: is there a specific reason why are
you doing
>>>>>>>> the release in multiple votes ? It would be simpler to just
>>>>>>>> everything in one go and wait for a longer time because there
>>> more
>>>>>>>> things to check, or at least, release the api + implementation
>>> that
>>>>>>>> we can actually try something.  Just my 2 cents.
>>>>>>> I agree that this sort of 'extended incremental' release is a
>>>>>>> awkward, and I was wondering when someone would ask what on earth
>>>>>>> was doing :). IMO it's the cleanest way to work with with
>>>>>>> release-by-bundle (which I know you disagree with). If I release
>>>>>>> everything in one go, there's a problem with the dependencies
>>>>>>> bundles. At the moment in trunk, almost every dependency is a
>>>>>>> dependency. In the past we've updated all bundles to use non-SNAPSHOT
>>>>>>> (but not yet released) versions in a branch, and I could even
>>>>>>> something similar without using a branch by briefly having the
>>>>>>> builds produce 1.0.0 artefacts. However, I think this creates
>>>>>>> greater burden for testers. If there are compilation-order
>>>>>>> dependencies between parts of a release which don't share a top-level
>>>>>>> pom, everyone verifying a script has to compile them in the right
>>>>>>> order. I count 118 bundles to release, so that's a lot of bundles
>>>>>>> get in the right order, and I didn't think any PMC member would
>>>>>>> to try. :) I guess this could be automated with a verification
>>>>>>> which either hardcodes or calculates the dependency graph, but
>>>>>>> seemed to me like more work for everyone and more risk for the
>>>>>>> release. My hope was that if verifying individual mini-releases
>>>>>>> easy enough, doing multiple ones wouldn't be a problem (and in
>>>>>>> would nicely distribute any effort, making it easier to vote).
>>>>>>> I know at this stage some of you are thinking "and *this* is
>>>>>>> release by bundle is a bad idea!", and that's not really a debate
>>>>>>> want to re-open. Among other things, I think any re-engineering
of our
>>>>>>> poms at this stage will further delay the release.
>>>>>>> The good news is I believe this problem will almost entirely
go away
>>>>>>> for 1.0.x and 1.x releases, because the impl bundle will, in
>>>>>>> cases, depend on an *already* released version of its API bundle
>>>>>>> another Aries component. This means a bunch of related bundles
>>>>>>> be released at the same time, without compile issues, or a meaningful
>>>>>>> release really could consist of just a single bundle. That's
>>>>>>> modularity and it should give both us and our users big benefits.
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 25, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Daniel Kulp <>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Honestly, with the change to using Nexus, the SHA1 and
MD5 checks
>>> are
>>>>>>>>> completely pointless.   Nexus generates them itself based
on what's
>>>>>>>>> uploaded.  The "is it a valid signature" part of the
GPG testing is
>>> also
>>>>>>>>> pointless as Nexus won't let you close the repo unless
>>> signatures are
>>>>>>>>> valid.   The only check you really need to do is to make
sure the
>>> key that
>>>>>>>>> was used is "trusted" by you.   (aka: was it really Holly
>>> deployed those
>>>>>>>>> artifacts)    So the monontonous parts of checking that
stuff is
>>> really
>>>>>>>>> irrelevant at this point.  (providing we trust that infra
has Nexus
>>>>>>>>> sufficiently locked down and secure)
>>>>>>>>> I actually don't have a big issue with the difficulting
in getting
>>> votes.
>>>>>>>>> I'm involved in another community that has a PMC that
is easily 4
>>> times the
>>>>>>>>> size of this one, yet we still have difficulting getting
>>> there.
>>>>>>>>> While not ideal, life events can cause priority shifts
and such so
>>> people
>>>>>>>>> may not be able to be as responsive.
>>>>>>>>> My bigger problem is that the entire per bundle release
process and
>>> symantic
>>>>>>>>> versioning crap has put a HUGE burden on the release
>>> That makes
>>>>>>>>> it much harder to get quality releases out and makes
it less likely
>>> that
>>>>>>>>> anyone will step up to get "minor fixes" released.  
The only
>>> reason I
>>>>>>>>> stepped up with the 0.3.1 bp stuff is that *MY*  customers
are being
>>>>>>>>> affected by it.   Like wise for the proxy stuff.   If
>>> customers were
>>>>>>>>> not affected, I don't think I would have spent the time
and effort.
>>>   If
>>>>>>>>> the process for getting fixes and releases out to users
was smaller
>>> and
>>>>>>>>> easier, I have no problem doing them.   For CXF, we do
>>> releases on 3
>>>>>>>>> branches every other month or so.   But that's because
it's EASY to
>>> do.
>>>>>>>>> If it was up to me, I'd toss out the entire versioning
thing with
>>> 1.0 and go
>>>>>>>>> back to per module versioning thing.   So my fix to proxy
>>> have
>>>>>>>>> involved checking out all of "proxy", fixing it, and
releasing all
>>> of proxy
>>>>>>>>> as a proxy "0.3.1", even the modules that haven't changed.
>>> just a
>>>>>>>>> huge hassle to track down which bundles have changed,
which haven't
>>> which
>>>>>>>>> version numbers need to be updated, etc....   If it's
not quick and
>>> easy to
>>>>>>>>> do releases as a release manager, very few people are
going to step
>>> up to do
>>>>>>>>> it.     It may not be 100% "proper OSGi", but IMO, getting
>>> and such to
>>>>>>>>> the users is more important than that.    But that's
my opinion.
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, June 23, 2012 03:27:07 PM Holly Cummins
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>> Now that Jeremy's taken the time to write up our
>>> verification
>>>>>>>>>> process, I'd like to propose we change it. :) I think
it's too
>>> onerous
>>>>>>>>>> on the pmc, which therefore also inhibits our ability
to be
>>> responsive
>>>>>>>>>> to our users.
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- Why what we have
isn't working for
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> community -------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> I believe our users would like more frequent releases.
We've had
>>>>>>>>>> several keen requests and tweets and comments on
the aries-user
>>>>>>>>>> mailing list wishing we'd release more often. For
>>>>>>>>>> * "Desperately waiting for an Aries release after
loooong time.."
>>>>>>>>>> * "The problem with Aries is they seem to be too
busy coding to
>>>>>>>>>> release anything."
>>>>>>>>>> * "Compared to other projects (like Karaf and Camel)
Aries releases
>>>>>>>>>> tend to take quite some time."
>>>>>>>>>> * "It's 2012 now and Aries 0.3 is almost a year old.
Is there any
>>>>>>>>>> chance of a new Aries JPA release any time soon?
>>>>>>>>>> * "Looks like Apache Aries has made no visible progress
since Jan
>>>>>>>>>> 2011, if the time stamps on the maven central artefacts
are to be
>>>>>>>>>> believed."
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- Why what we have
isn't working for
>>> us
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Both Dan and I are trying to do releases at the moment,
>>> struggling
>>>>>>>>>> to get enough PMC votes. Dan's release is to back
port a
>>> show-stopper
>>>>>>>>>> proxy fix, so a release there is particularly pressing
- he's got a
>>>>>>>>>> non-binding +infinity vote, but that's all. My test
support release
>>>>>>>>>> vote has been open for about 64 hours, and only got
one vote so far
>>>>>>>>>> (thanks David B!). Obviously testsupport is less
exciting than
>>> proxy,
>>>>>>>>>> but that bundle does block more interesting releases.
>>>>>>>>>> Why aren't people voting? My guess is that it's too
much work to do
>>>>>>>>>> the full set of verifications described at
>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> seven steps, and while they don't actually take that
long to
>>> complete,
>>>>>>>>>> it's enough of a burden that we tend to leave the
voting to someone
>>>>>>>>>> else unless we really care about a release. I'm as
guilty of this
>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> anyone - I think a release is a good idea, but I'm
spending enough
>>>>>>>>>> time working on the 1.0.0 release that I don't want
to take time
>>> out
>>>>>>>>>> to vote on another release. I suspect Dan might feel
exactly the
>>> same
>>>>>>>>>> about my 1.0.0 bundles. :)
>>>>>>>>>> With release-by-bundle, there's a lot of verifications.
>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> sandbox code, we have 123 bundles to release in 1.0.0.
At three
>>> votes
>>>>>>>>>> per bundle, that means the PMC need to do 369 MD5
checks, 369 PGP
>>>>>>>>>> checks, 369 RAT checks, and so on, just to get 1.0.0
out the door.
>>>>>>>>>> This just doesn't seem like it scales. Batching the
bundle releases
>>>>>>>>>> together eases some of this burden, but not all.
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------- What I propose
>>>>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> I suggest we move to a more trust-based system, where
PMC members
>>>>>>>>>> carefully check releases if they want, but where
in general they're
>>>>>>>>>> voting on the principle of the release, rather than
the mechanics
>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the archives. In particular, they don't feel compelled
to do checks
>>>>>>>>>> before voting. If PMC members could say "Our users
need this
>>> function,
>>>>>>>>>> so +1", or "I know Holly has done sensible things
in the past, so
>>> +1"
>>>>>>>>>> or even "Do I want to check the SHAs on a test support
>>> Really?
>>>>>>>>>> +1" it would get our releases moving better, and
also save work for
>>>>>>>>>> all of us.
>>>>>>>>>> (At the moment I think what's happening is people
are thinking "Do
>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> want to check the SHAs on a test support bundle?
Really?" and then
>>>>>>>>>> skipping the +1 bit. :)  )
>>>>>>>>>> To ensure that at least *someone* has run the checks,
the release
>>>>>>>>>> manager could include the output of the seven checks
in an email to
>>>>>>>>>> the list. I think this level of checking is perfectly
>>> with
>>>>>>>>>> the minimum Apache process, which is that the release
manager signs
>>>>>>>>>> the artefacts and three PMC members vote +1
>>>>>>>>>> (
>>>>>>>>>> What do people think?
>>>>>>>>>> Holly
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Daniel Kulp
>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>> Talend Community Coder -
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>> Blog:
>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>> FuseSource, Integration everywhere
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> Guillaume Nodet
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> Blog:
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> FuseSource, Integration everywhere
>> --
>> ------------------------
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog:
>> ------------------------
>> FuseSource, Integration everywhere

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