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From Anton Vinogradov ...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Making Ignite Collaboration 100% Open and Transparent
Date Mon, 02 Sep 2019 10:13:13 GMT
Folks,

ASF Slack is just a private messenger.
For me, it's a way to have a conversation with any contributor joined
#ignite channel.
Of-course, conversation results should be published at Jira/devlist.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:11 PM Alexey Zinoviev <zaleslaw.sin@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Cool idea about sending summary/meeting records to dev list for each
> meaningful communication
> Support you, Pavel!
>
> пн, 2 сент. 2019 г. в 12:55, Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
>
> > Andrey is right, dev list is our primary form of communication, and for
> > many good reasons.
> >
> > Other forms of communications are fine, but all discussions/decisions
> > should be reflected on the dev list in one form or another.
> > - Had a chat in slack and agreed on something? Write a summary to the dev
> > list
> > - Had a meeting? Recording is great, but please post meeting minutes in
> > text form to the dev list
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Pavel
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 11:23 PM Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Andrey,
> > >
> > > I'm not insisting to replace dev list with Slack or always react to
> Slack
> > > messages. It's up to us to decide where and with what frequency to
> > respond.
> > > My suggestion is just to have Slack as an extra tool for the Ignite dev
> > > communications (no user support).
> > >
> > > I also prefer either email conversations (time to think, no commitments
> > to
> > > respond ASAP) or phone calls (make things done now). But sometimes
> Slack
> > > comes handy. For instance, I'd like to have a faster channel to talk to
> > > Nikolay Izhikov, Anton Vinogradov or Roman Shtykh on Ignite related
> tasks
> > > discussed initially on the dev.
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > Denis
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:04 AM Andrey Gura <agura@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why chat is called chat? [1] Just ignore modern definitions :) Chat
> is
> > > > "bla-bla-bla".
> > > >
> > > > IMO, there are no any pros for using Slack in order to make Ignite
> > > > Collaboration 100% Open and Transparent. Chat is just garbage of some
> > > > phrases that aren't structured into discussions (please, don't talk
> me
> > > > about threads in Slack, they are useless).  So  transparency isn't
> > > > chat's property. If some topics have parallel discussion we will have
> > > > as result something like salad "Asynchronous":
> > > > tomacucumtoes,bersmayonn,aise. Moreover, the same salad we will have
> > > > for discussion of one topic by many members.
> > > >
> > > > Mailing list is the best mean for easygoing interaction. It
> > > > asynchronous by nature and doesn't have any means for pressure to
> > > > community members (like notifications). Discussions on mailing list
> > > > are organized into threads and any new message to the thread will
> > > > follow up thread to the top of unread messages. All you need and
> > > > nothing more.
> > > >
> > > > Mailing list are indexed by search engines while Slack channels
> > > > aren't. It is stone in the garden of openтess.
> > > >
> > > > I always can refer to discussion on mailing list. But it's impossible
> > > > for discussion in Slack channel due to reasons mentioned above.
> > > >
> > > > I do not mind the idea as a whole. Chat could be nice and fun. But
> > > > openness, transparency, and also important searchability, it is all
> > > > about mailing lists, not chats.
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chat
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:40 AM Павлухин Иван <vololo100@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > + Meeting minutes
> > > > >
> > > > > 2019-08-28 22:29 GMT+11:00, Alexey Zinoviev <
> zaleslaw.sin@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > > > > I am totally support the idea with the planned and widely
> announced
> > > > Hangout
> > > > > > meeting between commiters and contributers and posting the link
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > dev-list with the special Topic Name and short agenda. Maybe,
the
> > > > recorded
> > > > > > video could be added to the YouTube (or to another platform)
to
> > share
> > > > with
> > > > > > the community members.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > пн, 26 авг. 2019 г. в 22:23, Amit Chavan <achavan1@gmail.com>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Hi Denis,
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I really like the initiative for transparency and collaboration.
> > Are
> > > > > >> there
> > > > > >> any plans to help get new contributors up to speed with
the
> > project
> > > > where
> > > > > >> they can contribute effectively? Sometimes it can be
> intimidating
> > to
> > > > > >> start
> > > > > >> on a large project without some help or advice. Maybe assigning
> a
> > > > mentor
> > > > > >> or
> > > > > >> an existing committer can be useful or some slack channel
people
> > can
> > > > ping
> > > > > >> on. I am starting new on the project and have picked out
newbie
> > > ticket
> > > > > >> from
> > > > > >> the Jira board. As I make myself familiar with the code
base
> maybe
> > > its
> > > > > >> good
> > > > > >> to have some direction on which area should I focus more
on etc.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > >> Amit
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 11:54 AM Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > Folks, let me share more details on why Anton started
the
> > > > conversation
> > > > > >> > about Ignite Slack:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/The-ASF-Slack-td43233.html
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Recently, a group of GridGain and Sberbank committers
of
> Ignite
> > > has
> > > > met
> > > > > >> to
> > > > > >> > discuss how to make our community more transparent
and open.
> > Anton
> > > > and
> > > > > >> > I
> > > > > >> > took part in that meeting. The primary problems we
see in
> > regards
> > > to
> > > > > >> > transparency and openness are as follows:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >    - A lot of discussions on the dev list abrupts suddenly
and
> > > it's
> > > > > >> unclear
> > > > > >> >    whether a discussion is abandoned or something else
is
> going
> > on
> > > > in
> > > > > >> > the
> > > > > >> >    background with a task/bug/improvement. In many
cases, we
> > tend
> > > to
> > > > > >> > fall
> > > > > >> > back
> > > > > >> >    to faster communication ways like instant messaging,
calls,
> > or
> > > > > >> > face-to-face
> > > > > >> >    meetings that are not visible to the rest of the
community.
> > > > Emails
> > > > > >> (dev
> > > > > >> >    list) are the right communication channel but not
for all
> of
> > > the
> > > > > >> stages.
> > > > > >> >    - Change reviews seem to be in a chaotic state.
Sometimes
> it
> > > > takes
> > > > > >> many
> > > > > >> >    rounds for a committer to urge another committer
to do a
> > > review.
> > > > In
> > > > > >> many
> > > > > >> >    cases, the other committer might be simply overwhelmed
with
> > > > regular
> > > > > >> > tasks
> > > > > >> >    imposed by an employer. It will be good to come
up with
> some
> > > > public
> > > > > >> >    tracking approach that will help us all to see who
and when
> > > will
> > > > be
> > > > > >> > able to
> > > > > >> >    review certain changes and make them to Ignite.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > To address the problems we want to propose the following:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >    - Keep using dev list the way you do today. No changes
need
> > to
> > > be
> > > > > >> > done
> > > > > >> >    here.
> > > > > >> >    - Introduce Ignite Slack for instant messaging across
all
> the
> > > > > >> community
> > > > > >> >    members who are obviously employed by different
companies.
> > > Ignite
> > > > > >> > PMC
> > > > > >> > will
> > > > > >> >    be managing channels for various topics. Go to Slack
when
> > email
> > > > (dev
> > > > > >> > list)
> > > > > >> >    conversation is no longer effective, the way we
do daily,
> no
> > > > need to
> > > > > >> >    complicate our lives just because we work on an
open-source
> > > > project
> > > > > >> >    together.
> > > > > >> >    - Two or more committers need to talk verbally?
Go ahead
> and
> > > > > >> > schedule
> > > > > >> a
> > > > > >> >    meeting with Google Hangouts or another tool. Send
an
> invite
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > >> dev
> > > > > >> >    list for those who'd like to join and listen or
share
> > opinion.
> > > > Want
> > > > > >> > to
> > > > > >> > talk
> > > > > >> >    in your native language? Go ahead and put a disclaimer
> that a
> > > > > >> > conversation
> > > > > >> >    will be in Chinese, Russia, French, whatever. Simple
and
> > open.
> > > > > >> >    - Don't know how soon you'll be able to review some
changes
> > > and,
> > > > > >> > thus,
> > > > > >> >    ignoring other committers requests? GridGain and
Sberbank
> are
> > > > ready
> > > > > >> > to
> > > > > >> >    propose a solution here. Both vendors use an approach
to
> > > > cooperate
> > > > > >> > between
> > > > > >> >    GridGain and Sberbank committers. Now we'd like
to make it
> > > fully
> > > > > >> > open
> > > > > >> > and
> > > > > >> >    adjust for community needs if required.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Thoughts, suggestions? I think we'll schedule a community
> > meeting
> > > to
> > > > > >> finish
> > > > > >> > the conversation or discuss any cornerstone points.
But start
> > with
> > > > your
> > > > > >> > questions first.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > -
> > > > > >> > Denis
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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