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From Ceki Gülcü <c...@qos.ch>
Subject RE: [POLL] Moving UGLI outside Apache?
Date Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:06:59 GMT

Hi Mark,

I agree that objections about the Apache license are more religious than 
practical. However, the objections are raised by influential corners in the 
OS universe. I think there is a difference between a logging facade, e.g. 
UGLI or JCL, and the implementation of that facade, e.g. log4j. While 
moving log4j out of Apache is out of the question, moving the facade may 
make better sense.

The approach I am suggesting may not be ideal but it should hopefully allow 
us to increase the number of participants and our chances of reaching 
consensus.

At 06:46 PM 4/6/2005, Mark Womack wrote:
>I would prefer to investigate keeping UGLI within ASF.  Moving UGLI outside
>of Apache will not solve other project's objections to using log4j (or any
>other Apache project) as I assume we are not planning to move log4j outside
>of the ASF.  Quite frankly, I don't have a lot of sympathy for other
>project's objections to the ASF license, given that it is so open and
>flexible.  It seems more of a religious issue than a practical issue, IMHO.
>
>Why do we care about the license issue?  If we really cared about that and
>how it affects adoption rates, then what about the current projects in
>logging services?  Should we take log4j BSD/MIT and triple our adoption
>rate?
>
>Is it licensing or a question as to whether the two cultures (LS & JCL) can
>work together within the current environment?  I think that finding a way to
>make it work is important.  If it can't work, then we can look at other
>options.  I'm sorry I have not been able to keep up with the latest JCL
>discussions, so I am commenting in that vacuum.
>
>-Mark
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:ceki@qos.ch]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 5:34 AM
> > To: log4j-dev@logging.apache.org
> > Subject: [POLL] Moving UGLI outside Apache?
> >
> >
> > Greetings to all,
> >
> > As a result of discussions held on this list and on commons-dev, I
> > think starting a new project based on or similar to UGLI outside
> > Apache Logging Services would benefit the wider OS community.
> >
> > For one, many open source projects based on GPL or LGPL licenses
> > refuse to adopt log4j because of its Apache license which they deem
> > incompatible with their own. Whether the Apache Software license is
> > incompatible with GPL or LGPL is a matter of debate beyond the scope
> > of this email note. I am merely relaying the position adopted by the
> > Free Software Foundation, whose opinion carries considerable weight in
> > the open source world.
> >
> > Given  UGLI's tiny  size,  I  think we  should  consider changing  its
> > license to BSD or MIT, in  order to facilitate its wider adoption.  As
> > an immediate consequence,  we would need to move  UGLI outside the ASF
> > because the foundation will not host software not Apache licensed.
> >
> > Just as importantly, I think the lessons learned from the JCL
> > experience warrant a new approach. A new start should allow for
> > participants from the commons-dev community as well as Apache Logging
> > Services to share their knowledge in more open and cordial atmosphere.
> >
> > Do you think starting a new project, based or similar to UGLI outside
> > the ASF is an option worth exploring?  Other comments? Opinions?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ceki Gülcü
> >
> >    The complete log4j manual: http://www.qos.ch/log4j/
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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-- 
Ceki Gülcü

   The complete log4j manual: http://www.qos.ch/log4j/



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