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From "Christian Grobmeier" <grobme...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Next release of 2.0
Date Fri, 03 Jan 2014 19:00:28 GMT
On 3 Jan 2014, at 18:02, Scott Deboy wrote:

> IMO, being unable to change the API in log4j1 due to compatibility
> concerns is what caused development of log4j to essentially stop
> (other than the occasional bug fix commit).
>
> I'd hate for us to end up in the same place with log4j2.

+1

I was not there back then, but i have seen the "too much bc" illness in 
Commons.

We are in Beta for a long time. From a community perspective I think its 
really time to show that we trust in the new log4j2.
At the moment we have a pretty much unmaintained log4j1 and an 
officially unstable log4j2.

I think changes in log4j-api might be very rare. Under the hood we can 
change things more often. If people use things behind the API, they must 
also accept the fact that software is developing further. If they are 
really concerned about changes they need to be involved.

I gave a lot of talks on log4j2 in 2013 and i face a lot of questions 
like: when will log4j2 be out.
While we might have some concerns, we should go "release early, often" 
and show some trust in what we build. We have users who reports its 
great. I use it myself without any problems. But as long as it has the 
beta label we will not reach the wider developer community.
In the meantime it will become more difficult and difficult for us as 
people start to migrate to other frameworks.

You see, I have community concerns to release it now. And I have not 
heard of any serious concerns against releasing it.

My suggestion: give Gary a few days, lets say 2 weeks to check the code 
base and voice out real concerns.
At best, he doesn't find much. If he needs more time, give more time.

if there is something to fix, fix it now. But lets make the next release 
stable and a real 2.0.

Because that will also start the discussion of eol log4j 1, finally.

My 2 cent. :)

Cheers,
Christian


>
> Scott
>
> On 1/3/14, Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> What are contemplating changing in log4j-api?
>>
>> Ralph
>>
>>
>> On Jan 3, 2014, at 8:28 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgregory@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Gary Gregory 
>>> <garydgregory@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> I'm not sure what policy WRT binary and source compatibility we have 
>>> in
>>> log4j 1 and 2. Over in Commons, if you break BC, in general, that 
>>> means a
>>> package name change and a Maven name change, for example from
>>> o.a.commons.lang to lang3. This is using the Clirr report to check 
>>> for
>>> errors. There are exceptions of course, usually if a public API 
>>> changes
>>> but it is considered part of the implementation and not what a call 
>>> site
>>> should use.
>>>
>>> I forgot to mention, in Log4j, we have a more stringent requirement 
>>> since
>>> there are users of log4j and implementors of appenders. So some of 
>>> the
>>> log4j guts are necessarily public to allow Appender implementations 
>>> to be
>>> written.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:19 AM, Scott Deboy <scott.deboy@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> I think it makes sense to go through the existing bugs and find ones 
>>> we
>>> feel are critical and squash them before a final 2.0.
>>>
>>> Gary's right in the sense that adoption as a non beta means we will 
>>> feel
>>> resistance to significant changes.
>>>
>>> Maybe we should make it clear that Api changes may appear in 2.1 but 
>>> not
>>> 2.0.x?
>>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2014 7:23 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgregory@gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Remko Popma <remko.popma@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Frankly, Gary, I don't understand the hesitation.
>>> We started talking about a 2.0 GA release six months ago. Surely 
>>> that
>>> should have been enough time to familiarize yourself with the APIs 
>>> and
>>> raise any concerns.
>>>
>>> I understand that the 2.0 release is a big step but I also agree 
>>> with
>>> Christian that if unforeseen issues come up we can address them in
>>> upcoming releases. (And if we find we've made a terrible mistake and 
>>> need
>>> an API change, then so be it...)
>>>
>>> How about everyone marks outstanding Jira tickets that they really 
>>> want to
>>> address before the 2.0 release (with the issue target version), and
>>> release the 2.0 GA when these are all fixed?
>>>
>>> Hey, it's a volunteer community process, and we all have our 
>>> opinions ;) I
>>> just stated mine is all.
>>>
>>> Feel free to call a vote when you see fit. It's all good.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 3:47 AM, Remko Popma <remko.popma@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> What tweaks do you have in mind? API changes?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:45 AM, Gary Gregory 
>>> <garydgregory@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Christian Grobmeier 
>>> <grobmeier@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> Why the caution?
>>>
>>> We can have a 3.0, a 2.1 and son on.
>>>
>>> Nobody expects we should stick forever with a version.
>>> On the other hand, we were releasing in beta for ages now.
>>>
>>> What are the reasons you don't want a 2.0 stable?
>>>
>>> You've got it backwards ;)
>>>
>>> I do want a stable 2.0. I, personally, am not 100% familiar with 
>>> 100% of
>>> the API and I am not sure that the API is stable. There are a LOT of
>>> _public_ APIs in Log4J. Once 2.0 is out, these are set in stone.
>>>
>>> There are also a couple of tweaks I'd like to do. People are using 
>>> log4j
>>> now in beta form. Another beta/rc will not hurt. But once 2.0 is 
>>> out, we
>>> are set.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2 Jan 2014, at 14:04, Gary Gregory wrote:
>>>
>>> Make it RC or another beta IMO. Once 2.0 is out you cannot unhinged 
>>> that
>>> bell.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
>>> Date:01/02/2014  02:46  (GMT-05:00)
>>> To: Log4J Developers List <log4j-dev@logging.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Next release of 2.0
>>>
>>> I am trying to find a bit more time to work on Log4j again.  I see 
>>> quite a
>>> few issues that I would like to address and think I will need about 
>>> 2
>>> weeks to complete them so I am tentatively targeting the middle of 
>>> the
>>> month for the next release.   The question in my mind is whether the 
>>> next
>>> release should be 2.0-RC1 or just 2.0.
>>>
>>> Ralph
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>>>
>>> ---
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition
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>>> Spring Batch in Action
>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition
>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition
>>> Spring Batch in Action
>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> E-Mail: garydgregory@gmail.com | ggregory@apache.org
>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition
>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition
>>> Spring Batch in Action
>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com
>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/
>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
>>
>>
>
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---
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@grobmeier
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