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From Paul Fremantle <pzf...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Date Tue, 08 Jun 2010 07:04:40 GMT
There is a balance to be had here. Firstly, the idea of super-projects
and sub-projects is tricky. I personally think that in this case it
might have some merit, but I agree with others I don't think its going
to fly just now. But maybe the approach will change.

However, I'm very positive about Tammo's overall goals here: I'd
really like to see a more co-ordinated and active roadmap and and
encourage people to see that we have focussed plans around BPM. I'm
certainly willing to help out with whatever I can.

Paul

On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Btw, don't get me wrong.  I don't say you should not start implementing WSHT
> or anything else inside Ode.
> I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the best
> thing to do.
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tvanlessen@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
>>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and makes
>>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
>>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
>>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not necessarily
>>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge.
>>>
>>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better as
>> two peer TLPs at the end.
>> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new committers
>> will be involved in one
>> project but not the other.
>>
>> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size of
>> their respective communities.
>> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
>> status is in one year.
>>
>>
>>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
>>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that
>>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
>>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together
>>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
>>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
>>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
>>> know what I can expect to find there.
>>>
>>>
>> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being spin
>> off as a TLP.
>> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be accepted as
>> new TLP afaik.
>> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap / strategy,
>> you can have
>> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are other
>> examples too).
>> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
>>
>> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology is
>> irrelevant to the fact that they
>> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think.  For that, the
>> projects.apache.org site should be
>> improved imo.
>>
>>
>>> Tammo
>>>
>>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
>>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be
>>> > integrated, which means a lot.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the
>>> ASF
>>> >> ...
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tvanlessen@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi guys,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around
>>> ODE
>>> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution,
the
>>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new
>>> human
>>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
>>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for
ODE
>>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the
BPM
>>> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring
>>> PMC.
>>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find
>>> their
>>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
>>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache
>>> the
>>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project
that
>>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea,
>>> but
>>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>>  Tammo
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Cheers,
>>> >> Guillaume Nodet
>>> >> ------------------------
>>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>> >> ------------------------
>>> >> Open Source SOA
>>> >> http://fusesource.com
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>



-- 
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2
Apache Synapse PMC Chair
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com

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