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From Rafal Rusin <ra...@intalio.com>
Subject Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Date Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:37:07 GMT
Sounds very good.

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Milinda Pathirage <
milinda.pathirage@gmail.com> wrote:

> IMHO, as the first step, we should try to bring ODE, Apache Hise, and
> BPEL4Peple implementation together and do a release which provide basic BPM
> tools. WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> Milinda
>
> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Paul Fremantle <pzfreo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is a balance to be had here. Firstly, the idea of super-projects
> > and sub-projects is tricky. I personally think that in this case it
> > might have some merit, but I agree with others I don't think its going
> > to fly just now. But maybe the approach will change.
> >
> > However, I'm very positive about Tammo's overall goals here: I'd
> > really like to see a more co-ordinated and active roadmap and and
> > encourage people to see that we have focussed plans around BPM. I'm
> > certainly willing to help out with whatever I can.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Btw, don't get me wrong.  I don't say you should not start implementing
> > WSHT
> > > or anything else inside Ode.
> > > I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the
> > best
> > > thing to do.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tvanlessen@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
> > >>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and
> > makes
> > >>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
> > >>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
> > >>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not
> > necessarily
> > >>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar
> merge.
> > >>>
> > >>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better
> > as
> > >> two peer TLPs at the end.
> > >> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new
> > committers
> > >> will be involved in one
> > >> project but not the other.
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size
> of
> > >> their respective communities.
> > >> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
> > >> status is in one year.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
> > >>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand
> that
> > >>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
> > >>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong
> together
> > >>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
> > >>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
> > >>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
> > >>> know what I can expect to find there.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being
> > spin
> > >> off as a TLP.
> > >> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be
> accepted
> > as
> > >> new TLP afaik.
> > >> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap /
> strategy,
> > >> you can have
> > >> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are
> > other
> > >> examples too).
> > >> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
> > >>
> > >> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology
> is
> > >> irrelevant to the fact that they
> > >> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think.  For that, the
> > >> projects.apache.org site should be
> > >> improved imo.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Tammo
> > >>>
> > >>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
> > >>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things
> will
> > be
> > >>> > integrated, which means a lot.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gnodet@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon
at
> the
> > >>> ASF
> > >>> >> ...
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <
> > tvanlessen@gmail.com>
> > >>> >> wrote:
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>> Hi guys,
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at
Apache
> around
> > >>> ODE
> > >>> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL
execution,
> > the
> > >>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN
2.0),
> new
> > >>> human
> > >>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People),
new
> > projects
> > >>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road
map for
> ODE
> > >>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but
also the
> BPM
> > >>> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the
> sponsoring
> > >>> PMC.
> > >>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may
want to
> find
> > >>> their
> > >>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella
of ODE,
> > which
> > >>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella
PMC at
> Apache
> > >>> the
> > >>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish
project
> > that
> > >>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an
uncooked
> > idea,
> > >>> but
> > >>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Thanks,
> > >>> >>>  Tammo
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> --
> > >>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> --
> > >>> >> Cheers,
> > >>> >> Guillaume Nodet
> > >>> >> ------------------------
> > >>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > >>> >> ------------------------
> > >>> >> Open Source SOA
> > >>> >> http://fusesource.com
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Guillaume Nodet
> > >> ------------------------
> > >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > >> ------------------------
> > >> Open Source SOA
> > >> http://fusesource.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Guillaume Nodet
> > > ------------------------
> > > Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > > ------------------------
> > > Open Source SOA
> > > http://fusesource.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Fremantle
> > Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2
> > Apache Synapse PMC Chair
> > OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> >
> > blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
> > paul@wso2.com
> >
> > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Milinda Pathirage
> Technical Lead & Product Manager WSO2 BPS; http://wso2.org/bps
> WSO2 Inc.; http://wso2.com
> E-mail: milinda@wso2.com, milinda.pathirage@gmail.com
> Web: http://mpathirage.com
> Blog: http://blog.mpathirage.com
>



-- 
Regards,
RafaƂ Rusin
http://rrusin.blogspot.com

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