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From Jungtaek Lim <kabhwan.opensou...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Request to document the direct relationship between other configurations
Date Fri, 14 Feb 2020 02:36:07 GMT
Even spark.dynamicAllocation.* doesn't follow 2-2, right? It follows the
mix of 1 and 2-1, though 1 is even broken there.

It doesn't matter If we just discuss about one-time decision - it may be OK
to not to be strict on consistency, though it's not ideal. The thing is
that these kind of "preferences" are making confusion on review phase:
reviewers provide different comments and try to "educate" contributors on
their preferences. Expectations for such cases heavily depends on who
is/are reviewers of PR - there's no value on education.

The codebase is the reference of implicit rules/policies which would apply
to all contributors including newcomers. Let's just put our best efforts on
being consistent on codebase. (We should have consensus to do this anyway.)


On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 12:44 PM Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it’s just fine as long as we’re consistent with the instances
> having the description, for instance:
>
>   When true and ‘spark.xx.xx’ is enabled, …
>
> I think this is 2-2 in most cases so far. I think we can reference other
> configuration keys in another configuration documentation by using
> ADAPTIVE_EXECUTION_ENABLED.key as an example. So we don’t have
> duplication problem in most cases.
>
> Being consistent with the current base is a general guidance if I am not
> mistaken. We have identified a problem and a good goal to reach.
> If we want to change, let's do it as our final goal. Otherwise, let's
> simplify it to reduce the overhead rather then having a policy for the
> mid-term specifically.
>
>
> 2020년 2월 13일 (목) 오후 12:24, Jungtaek Lim <kabhwan.opensource@gmail.com>님이
> 작성:
>
>> I tend to agree that there should be a time to make thing be consistent
>> (and I'm very happy to see the new thread on discussion) and we may want to
>> take some practice in the interim.
>>
>> But for me it is not clear what is the practice in the interim. I pointed
>> out the problems of existing style and if we all agree the problems are
>> valid then we may need to fix it before start using it widely.
>>
>> For me the major question is "where" to put - at least there're two
>> different approaches:
>>
>> 1) put it to the description of `.enable` and describe the range of
>> impact (e.g.) put the description of "spark.A.enable" saying it will affect
>> the following configurations under "spark.A".
>> (I don't think it's good to enumerate all of affected configs, as
>> `spark.dynamicAllocation.enable` is telling it is fragile.)
>>
>> 2) put it to the description of all affected configurations and describe
>> which configuration is the prerequisite to let this be effective. e.g. put
>> it on all configurations under `spark.dynamicAllocation` mentioning
>> `spark.dynamicAllocation.enable` should be enabled to make this be
>> effective.
>>
>> (I intended to skip mentioning "cross reference". Let's be pragmatic.)
>>
>> 2) has also two ways to describe:
>>
>> 2-1) Just mention simply - like "When dynamic allocation is enabled,",
>> not pointing out the key to toggle. This hugely simplify the description,
>> though end users may have to do the second guess to find the key to toggle.
>> (It'll be intuitive when we structurize the configurations.)
>>
>> 2-2) Mention the key to toggle directly - like "This is effective only if
>> spark.A.enable is set to true.". It's going to be longer depending on how
>> long the configuration key is. Personally I'd feel verbose unless the key
>> to toggle is not placed to the spot we can infer, but others may have
>> different opinions.
>>
>> I may be missing some details, so please participate to add the details.
>> Otherwise we may want to choose the best one, and have a sample form of
>> description. (Once we reach here, it may be OK to add to the contribution
>> doc, as that is the thing we agree about.)
>>
>> Without the details it's going to be a some sort of "preference" which is
>> natural to have disagreement, hence it doesn't make sense someone is forced
>> to do something if something turns out to be "preference".
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:10 AM Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Adding those information is already a more prevailing style at this
>>> moment, and this is usual to follow prevailing side if there isn't a
>>> specific reason.
>>> If there is confusion about this, I will explicitly add it into the
>>> guide (https://spark.apache.org/contributing.html). Let me know if this
>>> still confuses or disagree.
>>>
>>> 2020년 2월 13일 (목) 오전 9:47, Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com>님이
작성:
>>>
>>>> Yes, that's probably our final goal to revisit the configurations to
>>>> make it structured and deduplicated documentation cleanly. +1.
>>>>
>>>> One point I would like to add is though to add such information to the
>>>> documentation until we actually manage our final goal
>>>> since probably it's going to take a while to revisit/fix and make it
>>>> fully structured with the documentation.
>>>> If we go more conservatively, we can add such information to the new
>>>> configurations being added from now on at least, and keeping the existing
>>>> configurations as are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020, 06:12 Dongjoon Hyun, <dongjoon.hyun@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for raising the issue, Hyukjin.
>>>>>
>>>>> According to the current status of discussion, it seems that we are
>>>>> able to agree on updating the non-structured configurations and keeping
the
>>>>> structured configuration AS-IS.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm +1 for the revisiting the configurations if that is our direction.
>>>>> If there is some mismatch in structured configurations, we may fix them
>>>>> together.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bests,
>>>>> Dongjoon.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 8:08 AM Jules Damji <dmatrix@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All are valid and valuable observations to put into practice:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * structured and meaningful config names
>>>>>> * explainable text or succinct description
>>>>>> * easily accessible or searchable
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While these are aspirational but gradually doable if we make it part
>>>>>> of the dev and review cycle. Often meaningful config names, like
security,
>>>>>> come as after thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the AMA in Amsterdam Spark Summit last year, a few developers
>>>>>> lamented the lack of finding Spark configs—what they do; what they
are used
>>>>>> for; when and why; and what are their default values.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though you one fetch them programmatically, one still has to know
>>>>>> what specific config one islooking for.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Jules
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> Pardon the dumb thumb typos :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2020, at 5:19 AM, Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yeah, that's one of my point why I dont want to document this in
the
>>>>>> guide yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to make sure dev people are on the same page that
>>>>>> documenting is a better practice. I dont intend to force as a hard
>>>>>> requirement; however, if that's pointed out, it should better to
address.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 12 Feb 2020, 21:30 Wenchen Fan, <cloud0fan@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general I think it's better to have more detailed documents,
but
>>>>>>> we don't have to force everyone to do it if the config name is
structured.
>>>>>>> I would +1 to document the relationship of we can't tell it from
the config
>>>>>>> names, e.g. spark.shuffle.service.enabled
>>>>>>> and spark.dynamicAllocation.enabled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 7:54 PM Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, I would like to hear other people' thoughts on here.
Could I
>>>>>>>> ask what you guys think about this in general?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2020년 2월 12일 (수) 오후 12:02, Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com>님이
작성:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To do that, we should explicitly document such structured
>>>>>>>>> configuration and implicit effect, which is currently
missing.
>>>>>>>>> I would be more than happy if we document such implied
>>>>>>>>> relationship, *and* if we are very sure all configurations
are
>>>>>>>>> structured correctly coherently.
>>>>>>>>> Until that point, I think it might be more practical
to simply
>>>>>>>>> document it for now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Btw, maybe off-topic, `spark.dynamicAllocation`
is having
>>>>>>>>> another issue on practice - whether to duplicate description
between
>>>>>>>>> configuration code and doc. I have been asked to add
description on
>>>>>>>>> configuration code regardlessly, and existing codebase
doesn't. This
>>>>>>>>> configuration is widely-used one.
>>>>>>>>> This is actually something we should fix too. in SQL
>>>>>>>>> configuration, now we don't have such duplications as
of
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/spark/pull/27459 as it generates.
We
>>>>>>>>> should do it in other configurations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2020년 2월 12일 (수) 오전 11:47, Jungtaek Lim <
>>>>>>>>> kabhwan.opensource@gmail.com>님이 작성:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm looking into the case of `spark.dynamicAllocation`
and this
>>>>>>>>>> seems to be the thing to support my voice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/spark/blob/master/docs/configuration.md#dynamic-allocation
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't disagree with adding "This requires
>>>>>>>>>> spark.shuffle.service.enabled to be set." in the
description of
>>>>>>>>>> `spark.dynamicAllocation.enabled`. This cannot be
inferred implicitly,
>>>>>>>>>> hence it should be better to have it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why I'm in favor of structured configuration &
implicit effect
>>>>>>>>>> over describing everything explicitly is there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. There're 10 configurations (if the doc doesn't
miss any other
>>>>>>>>>> configuration) except `spark.dynamicAllocation.enabled`,
and only 4
>>>>>>>>>> configurations are referred in the description of
>>>>>>>>>> `spark.dynamicAllocation.enabled` - majority of config
keys are missing.
>>>>>>>>>> 2. I think it's intentional, but the table starts
>>>>>>>>>> with `spark.dynamicAllocation.enabled` which talks
implicitly but
>>>>>>>>>> intuitively that if you disable this then everything
on dynamic allocation
>>>>>>>>>> won't work. Missing majority of references on config
keys don't get it hard
>>>>>>>>>> to understand.
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Even `spark.dynamicAllocation` has bad case -
see
>>>>>>>>>> `spark.dynamicAllocation.shuffleTracking.enabled`
and
>>>>>>>>>> `spark.dynamicAllocation.shuffleTimeout`. It is not
respecting the
>>>>>>>>>> structure of configuration. I think this is worse
than not explicitly
>>>>>>>>>> mentioning the description. Let's assume the name
has
>>>>>>>>>> been `spark.dynamicAllocation.shuffleTracking.timeout`
- isn't it intuitive
>>>>>>>>>> that setting `spark.dynamicAllocation.shuffleTracking.enabled`
to `false`
>>>>>>>>>> would effectively disable `spark.dynamicAllocation.shuffleTracking.timeout`?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Btw, maybe off-topic, `spark.dynamicAllocation` is
having another
>>>>>>>>>> issue on practice - whether to duplicate description
between configuration
>>>>>>>>>> code and doc. I have been asked to add description
on configuration code
>>>>>>>>>> regardlessly, and existing codebase doesn't. This
configuration is
>>>>>>>>>> widely-used one.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 11:22 AM Hyukjin Kwon <
>>>>>>>>>> gurwls223@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, adding "[DISCUSS]" is a good practice to
label it. I had
>>>>>>>>>>> to do it although it might be "redundant" :-)
since anyone can give
>>>>>>>>>>> feedback to any thread in Spark dev mailing list,
and discuss.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is actually more prevailing given my rough
reading of
>>>>>>>>>>> configuration files. I would like to see this
missing relationship as a bad
>>>>>>>>>>> pattern, started from a personal preference.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> > Personally I'd rather not think someone
won't understand
>>>>>>>>>>> setting `.enabled` to `false` means the functionality
is disabled and
>>>>>>>>>>> effectively it disables all sub-configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>> > E.g. when `spark.sql.adaptive.enabled` is
`false`, all the
>>>>>>>>>>> configurations for `spark.sql.adaptive.*` are
implicitly no-op. For me this
>>>>>>>>>>> is pretty intuitive and the one of major
>>>>>>>>>>> > benefits of the structured configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think this is a good idea we assume for
users to know
>>>>>>>>>>> such contexts. One might think
>>>>>>>>>>> `spark.sql.adaptive.shuffle.fetchShuffleBlocksInBatch.enabled`
can
>>>>>>>>>>> partially enable the feature. It is better to
be explicit to
>>>>>>>>>>> document since some of configurations are even
difficult for users to
>>>>>>>>>>> confirm if it is working or not.
>>>>>>>>>>> For instance, one might think setting
>>>>>>>>>>> 'spark.eventLog.rolling.maxFileSize' automatically
enables rolling. Then,
>>>>>>>>>>> they realise the log is not rolling later after
the file
>>>>>>>>>>> size becomes bigger.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2020년 2월 12일 (수) 오전 10:47, Jungtaek
Lim <
>>>>>>>>>>> kabhwan.opensource@gmail.com>님이 작성:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry if I miss something, but this is
ideally better to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> started as [DISCUSS] as I haven't seen any
reference to have consensus on
>>>>>>>>>>>> this practice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For me it's just there're two different practices
co-existing
>>>>>>>>>>>> on the codebase, meaning it's closer to the
preference of individual (with
>>>>>>>>>>>> implicitly agreeing that others have different
preferences), or it hasn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> been discussed thoughtfully.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Personally I'd rather not think someone won't
understand
>>>>>>>>>>>> setting `.enabled` to `false` means the functionality
is disabled and
>>>>>>>>>>>> effectively it disables all sub-configurations.
E.g. when
>>>>>>>>>>>> `spark.sql.adaptive.enabled` is `false`,
all the configurations for
>>>>>>>>>>>> `spark.sql.adaptive.*` are implicitly no-op.
For me this is pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive and the one of major benefits of
the structured configurations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If we want to make it explicit, "all" sub-configurations
should
>>>>>>>>>>>> have redundant part of the doc. More redundant
if the condition is nested.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree this is the good step of "be kind"
but less pragmatic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd be happy to follow the consensus we would
make in this
>>>>>>>>>>>> thread. Appreciate more voices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jungtaek Lim (HeartSaVioR)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 10:36 AM Hyukjin
Kwon <
>>>>>>>>>>>> gurwls223@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I don't plan to document this officially
yet
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just to prevent confusion, I meant I
don't yet plan to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> document the fact that we should write
the relationships in configurations
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a code/review guideline in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://spark.apache.org/contributing.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2020년 2월 12일 (수) 오전 9:57,
Hyukjin Kwon <gurwls223@gmail.com>님이
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 작성:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I happened to review some PRs and
I noticed that some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> configurations don't have some information
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To be explicit, I would like to make
sure we document the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direct relationship between other
configurations
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the documentation. For example,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> `spark.sql.adaptive.shuffle.reducePostShufflePartitions.enabled`
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be only enabled when `spark.sql.adaptive.enabled`
is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enabled. That's clearly documented.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We're good in general given that
we document them in general
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Apache Spark.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> See 'spark.task.reaper.enabled',
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'spark.dynamicAllocation.enabled',
'spark.sql.parquet.filterPushdown', etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, I noticed such a pattern
that such information is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missing in some components in general,
for example,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> `spark.history.fs.cleaner.*`, `spark.history.kerberos.*`
and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> `spark.history.ui.acls.* `
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope we all start to document such
information. Logically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users can't know the relationship
and I myself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had to read the codes to confirm
when I review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't plan to document this officially
yet because to me it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks a pretty logical request to
me; however,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let me know if you guys have some
different opinions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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